Transcript
Julie Kiefer: Scientists at the University of Utah are helping us understand how the world works. They're advancing our understanding of an impressive array of subjects, from cosmic rays in outer space to microbes that combat climate change and new treatments for breast cancer.
It's one thing for scientists to explain their work to an academic audience, but it's quite another to make sure their advances are easily understood by the general public and by the media. This job, communicating research, is impactful. It can shape policy and diffuse misinformation.
I'm Julie Kiefer, associate director of science communications at University of Utah Health, and translating research stories is a big part of my job.
But today I'm excited to introduce two other people engaged in this work at the U—science writers Brian Maffly and Lisa Potter. They're here to explain what they do and why it matters.
Welcome to U Rising, Brian and Lisa.
Brian Maffly: Yeah, thanks, Julie. So good to be here.
Lisa Potter: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Julie Kiefer: So, Brian, let's start with you. How long have you been here at the U and what exactly is your role with University Communications?
Brian Maffly: Yeah, I joined the U back in June, so not very long ago. I come from a journalism background. I moved here to Utah in 1994 to work for The Salt Lake Tribune and had a number of different positions there over the years, finally writing about science and environment and public lands for the last 15 years or so.
I just decided a change of pace would be good and the opportunity came up here at the U to help Lisa, who's been here for many years, communicate the science that comes off this campus for, not just the campus community, but for the outside world and convey it in a way that makes sense and it is easy to understand because as you pointed out, scientists tend to speak in jargon that only other scientists can understand sometimes.
Julie Kiefer: Yeah, and I've always been a big fan of your work, so we're happy to have you here. And what about you, Lisa? How long have you been here and what's your background?
Lisa Potter: I came here eight years ago, in 2016, and I moved here from the Bay Area where I was freelancing, writing for the Monterey Bay Aquarium, doing some things for UC San Francisco. And prior to that I had gone through a science communication program. It's a 10-month program where, rather than other journalism programs where they teach journalists how to write about science, they take people with science degrees and teach them how to do journalism. And that really launched me to eventually end up here.
Julie Kiefer: And what brought you here to the university?
Lisa Potter: Well, I lived in San Francisco for 10 years and then got really into rock climbing. So, the real answer is that it was time to move out of the city. And my husband and I looked at cities that were close to rock climbing and a job popped up here working for University of Utah Communications writing about research and so rock climbing plus amazing job equals me here right now.
Brian Maffly: Yeah, well, the real reason I moved to Utah was to ski at Alta and The Salt Lake Tribune was kind of an excuse . . .
Julie Kiefer: Everybody's ulterior motive! Brian, how did you become interested in science writing in the first place? I mean, were you a reporter who got into science after or . . .
Brian Maffly: Exactly. Yeah, so I was a reporter for many years until an opportunity at the Tribune arose to write about science. At the time I was working for . . . there's a period in my career when I was working for the Wilderness Society doing communications work for them and a lot of it was science focused, and that got me interested in just how important science is to how our society works.
And plus, it's just really intellectually satisfying to learn about how nature works. And I found that it was something I really enjoyed. And so, I basically devoted my writing career to that since about 2007, 2008, around in there, it's all kind of a blur.
Brian Maffly is a science writer at the University of Utah.
What I liked about it a lot is you can get above all the kind of ugly controversies that often go with being a news reporter and just talk about what's real. And I find scientists to be really fascinating people, too. And they often have very interesting backstories, especially people on this campus. We can talk a lot about some of the great people who've worked here that I've had the pleasure of interviewing and going out in the field with, both as a member of the University of Utah staff and as a reporter.
Julie Kiefer: And Lisa, you came in through the other way, scientist first or into science first and then into writing. Why did you make that change?
Lisa Potter: A lot of zigs, a lot of zags. I got an undergrad degree at San Francisco State in earth science, and it was like the track where it was a BA, so it was sort of looking at meteorology, oceanography, geology, culminating in understanding climate change essentially. And it was supposed to arm people who wanted to teach, to do public policy, give you a scientific background, but then to sort of use it in a way that's not necessarily doing research, more about advocating for it or coming up with solutions.
But at the end of my graduation, I ended up doing a graduate program in a biology education research lab because at that point, I realized, oh, I actually really like science. I never thought I was a science person. This is cool. And so this lab I was in looked at how people with different types of biology experience learn biology.
And so it would be, it's like K through 12, what are science-backed techniques that are most effective to teach students of all ages, from K through 12 to undergraduates to graduate school? And the idea there was to try to support as many different types of learners in the classroom as possible instead of maybe the more traditional way, which is sort of a lecture that supports one type of learner versus more experiential education supports lots of types of learners.
And so I did a project that looked at, it was like, how do people with different levels of biology expertise explain genetically modified organisms? And so, it was like an undergrad non-science majors, undergrads who were just starting a biology degree, biology undergrads were about to graduate and then biology professors. And it was sort of asking them all the same questions and looking at what information did you bring when you're talking about something that's essentially a biological problem.
Lisa Potter is a science writer for the University of Utah.
But a lot of times you hear about GMOs, especially back then, in news media or in other contexts besides just science, and that really piqued my interest in terms of man, people really bring a lot of baggage to incorporating science concepts or science issues into their everyday life. And so during that, I thought that maybe I would want to teach at a college level. I taught during my graduate program and realized I don't have the burning desire to teach. It just didn't seem like it was for me, yet I really loved science. And then at the same time, I realized I really didn't like statistics. So, I loved coming up with the project and coming up with questions and analyzing it and then getting down to the nitty gritty part of science that so much of it is wasn't my bag. And so, one of the people, my mentors, used to be a science journalist and that really piqued my interest, like, oh, there's something where I can talk to scientists and kind of dive deep, but I don't have to do any of the science? Sign me up! And so that's what got me interested.
Julie Kiefer: Cool. So, what is your typical workday? I mean, what does being a science writer mean?
Lisa Potter: I think the thing I love most about my job is every day is different. A lot of times faculty on campus will reach out to Brian or myself if they have a new paper that's going to come out and they think it's on a topic that the public might be interested in. And so usually whatever I'm going to write about starts there. And so, I'll start, they'll send me a paper draft, I'll look at it, I'll schedule a time to talk with them about it, and we'll kind of hash it out. I do have sort of a science background, but not at the level and in the niches of these fields that all these brilliant academics we have are in. And so, I mean, I can't help but be the audience in terms of like, oh, can you repeat that or can you give me more background about that concept? And then in that way, we have a conversation where we can tease out what are the real big points of this research. How did you get there? But keep it at a level that we don't get too lost in the weeds. And yeah, I mean, that's a typical day.
Brian Maffly: How about an example of something you've done recently, Lisa? You've got a whole lot of great stuff you've done in the last few weeks.
Lisa Potter: Well, a paper came out about the most energetic cosmic ray particle—well, the second most energetic particle ever discovered was found by astrophysicists John Matthews and John Belz and their collaborators out at the Telescope Array, which is this amazing, huge area of all these different sensors out in the desert out by Delta, Utah, where they sit there and they sort of detect all these secondary particles from space stuff that smashes into our atmosphere and then creates all these sort of secondary particle tumbles that then they pick up and register it.
But anyway, it was really exciting. It got a lot of coverage.
Julie Kiefer: It was everywhere!
Lisa Potter: It was everywhere, which is so fun because, I don’t know, Brian, if you know this, but when you start talking about a research topic, it's not always clear what's going to resonate with people. So, this if you look at it too technically, it's like, oh, some really obscure particle that maybe you've never heard of hit the atmosphere. But when you dig in and you hear, you really can hear the enthusiasm from the physicists, who were amazing and really great at explaining it. And I just think that it really resonated in a way that I think kind of shocked all of us.
Brian Maffly: What I really was fascinated with was how this particle … no one can know where it came from, and it's probably been hurling across the universe for bajillions of years. And it finally collided with Earth and we got to record it.
Lisa Potter: That's true. And no one knows where it comes from, how far away it must have traveled to hit Earth, it's like defied the laws of physics because it should have lost a lot of energy before it hit us. Anyway, there's a lot of really great, cool mysteries.
Brian Maffly: Yeah, it's like when these researchers make some interesting discoveries, they wind up opening up a number of other questions, you know. For a curious person like Lisa and me, too, for that matter, this is a really fun, and Julie, this is kind of like a dream job.
Julie Kiefer: Well, and that's just it, right? It reinvigorates that wonder of discovery. You kind of feel like a kid again where you're learning about the natural world and there's always something new to learn. I mean, there's so much we don't know. And then being part of this job, I mean, you're one of the first people to know about it, which is really cool.
Lisa Potter: And really what I really love about it, too, is you get dropped into these scientists’ worlds where it's a whole microcosm and a whole culture, you know, and concepts that you've never heard of before are just what builds their entire world. And it’s so cool to get to dip a toe into that world and really get inspired by it. And then the next day, maybe we go into somebody else's world.
Julie Kiefer: What's one of the favorite stories you've worked on, Brian?
Brian Maffly: Well, one of my all-time favorite stories, actually, it was 10 years ago as a Tribune reporter, was going up to Range Creek Canyon with members of the anthropology department to look at the ancient Native American sites that have been preserved in a fairly pristine state.
And this area now has been under the University of Utah's tutelage now for almost 20 years. And they're doing some interesting field work out there. And the most interesting thing I've learned about that place from visiting it, were these, there's this network of these granaries the Fremont Indians built probably a thousand or more years ago, high up on these cliff walls. They're like the most difficult things to build and then to fill with your corn and then to access your corn. Why did they do that? And there's a few contradictory studies that have come out about why they did that. Plus, it's an amazingly beautiful place that has been preserved, whereas a lot of the archeological sites elsewhere in Utah have really been hammered, looted or turned into a national park where you're there with thousands and thousands of other people. Range Creek is a much quieter place. But that was probably one of the most fun stories I got to write, get to spend a few days in there with Duncan Metcalfe, I believe he's on emeritus status by now, of the anthropology department.
Julie Kiefer: I remember reading those articles that you wrote and just thinking, I want to go there and see what they saw and discover this new world.
Brian Maffly: Yeah. I've written a lot about the research out of the University of Utah over the years as a Tribune writer, but now as a member of the U staff, I think the most fun stories I've worked on are actually, I can't divulge yet because of an embargo, probably same with Lisa. She's got something really cool coming out, but before we can really talk about it we need to wait until these things get published. And maybe by the time this podcast gets posted, these studies will be posted, but we don't know.
Julie Kiefer: Yeah, don't talk about it yet. You'll get in trouble! So, we learned a little about what you love about this work, but what do you hope that your audience gets out of the work that you do?
Brian Maffly: I think the most important thing for me is that we convey the importance of science as a method of inquiry. There seems to be a lot of distrust in science these days. That mass distrust is driven for ideological reasons, I believe. And I feel that our society really needs to regain its trust in science. If anything, I hope I can help restore that trust.
Julie Kiefer: What about for you, Lisa?
Lisa Potter: Yeah, that's a huge benefit or a huge mission, for sure, Brian. I think another really cool thing is I really love shining a light on people that are doing really interesting things. They're really curious. They have such a unique and kind of inspired way of thinking about whatever problem that happens to be that the research is focused on. And I kind of love that Brian and I have some latitude in terms of who we talk to on campus and that we have a really great opportunity to showcase lots of different types of scientists with lots of different backgrounds to sort of show that there's no one stereotypical quote unquote scientist.
I know when I was going through school, I had the Einstein vision in my head, really serious, and I just was like, oh, well, I'm not serious so I would never do science. And then I found it later in life. So, I also do think there's a benefit in really being able to showcase people from all walks of life and get to see where they take their field. It's pretty exciting.
Julie Kiefer: Yeah, absolutely.
Brian Maffly: Yeah, and some of these discoveries that are happening on this campus, it might be really difficult to see today why does it matter why this organism evolved this particular characteristic? And I feel like we don't really know how valuable this science is going to be until later on.
The scientists who first figured out electricity, for example, in the 19th century—or 18th century, I mean, back then, it was just a parlor trick. It was an amusing curiosity. But figuring out electricity now has completely transformed human society in ways that Ben Franklin and those guys could hardly have anticipated.
Julie Kiefer: Yeah, well, and exactly. And it's so important, since we all fund science through government taxes or state taxes, you know, that people understand where their money is going and that it's actually going to something good and that is having an impact.
Lisa Potter: And it also gives us an opportunity to help platform scientists who can help people understand a little bit better, maybe, buzzwords they're hearing in the news. I mean, we are, I guess, still going through and did experience this huge world-changing event that really to understand it, you needed to know how a virus works and what's, like, population disease spread and all that. And so, I think it's also really helpful to be able to listen to somebody who can give context to that and really help you understand a problem that affects you every day.
Julie Kiefer: And maybe this is a tangent, but what was fascinating to me about Covid is how much science people learned when they had to learn it. So, people have that capacity, but I guess our job is to help them to absorb that information.
So, what are some of the things that you consider when you're deciding to pursue a story? What are you looking for or what do you hope to bring out there?
Lisa Potter: Well, I think there's a lot of faculty on campus who do really important work. Brian earlier mentioned basic research, which is a seemingly esoteric and very out there, super detailed and technical aspect of science that, like you said, at the moment might not have a clear relevance or what we can do with it, who knows? But down the line may have a lot of importance. And so, I do think, at least when I'm looking at a story to write those type of really early-stage research can be really cool.
But I think one of the biggest first questions I ask myself is, is it something that I think the public can get excited about? And that doesn't always mean it has to have a direct impact on your life. For example, that cosmic ray particle thing, it's like, oh, cool, there's a cosmic ray thing. It doesn't necessarily affect my day-to-day, but it's really cool. So, if it's really cool or if it's something, say like an air quality study that we have amazing researchers who are world leaders in air quality, that is something that Utahns experience every day. So yeah, I think just general interest is maybe the first question I ask.
Brian Maffly: Yeah, sometimes certain types of science can be very difficult to translate to a lay reader and a lot of people might not even find it interesting. So, I think one of my benchmarks is, will people find this work to be interesting? And some stuff is inherently interesting, like the cosmic particles, for example, or dinosaurs or wildlife or things like that. People are automatically interested even though it might not have anything to do with any aspect of their life at all, right? And then others are trying to solve an important problem.
And you mentioned earlier the research into microorganisms that fight climate change and specifically that research was something I wrote about recently from out of the chemistry department where there is one lab that's looking at a certain type of bacteria that eats methane out of the air. And methane is a very powerful common greenhouse gas. And this researcher, Jessica Swanson, is trying to figure out a way to solve that problem of methane in the atmosphere. So, stuff that's solving a problem is automatically very interesting.
A lot of this stuff, the research coming out of health science, is like that here. Is there a way we can better treat this medical condition? And a lot of times, a lot of people’s loved ones have that medical condition and they're going to want to read about these potential breakthroughs, for example. So that's something that I look to.
And then sometimes these scientists have just really fascinating backstories that just make . . . Nalini Nadkarni is a great example of that from the biology department or School of Biological Sciences as it's now called, one of the most inspiring people I've ever met. And in fact, I think she's a big reason why I really decided to devote my career to science writing.
And so there's research like what she's done with rainforest canopies and just the amazing variety of life that exists in those canopies that no one really paid attention to until she started looking at it. And now it's a very important field of research when it comes to understanding biodiversity and how to protect it. So, there's stuff like that.
And I've had a few researchers in the few months I've been here at the U that have just done incredible things with their lives in terms of travel and their life outside of science. One gentleman I interviewed two weeks ago from the business school, he is a postdoc. He's just had incredible experiences as a combat veteran in Afghanistan and Iraq and he's using those experiences to guide his research as a professor here, or postdoc, at the university. Again, the work is about to be published in the journal Nature, and it's not ready for primetime so I can't say much more about it than that.
Julie Kiefer: Something to look out for.
Brian Maffly: Yeah. Stay tuned. [See Brian’s story here: https://attheu.utah.edu/business/the-fate-of-novel-ideas/]
Julie Kiefer: Yeah, something I’ll mention from the health sciences part of campus, sometimes the research has a very effective public health message, so looking at the effectiveness of Covid vaccines, so important to get that information out, right? Or the recent story my colleague Sophia Friesen did on looking at the impacts of cannabis use during pregnancy at a time when cannabis use is exploding. These things have a very practical applications and information that people need to know. So, it's nice to play a role in that, too.
So, I mean, Lisa, you cover so many departments on main campus. How do you even keep up on what's going on?
Lisa Potter: Probably the two main ways are, I mean, honestly, most of what I write about is when faculty give me a heads up. So, if they're about to publish a paper in a peer-reviewed journal, they'll reach out and say it could be of interest. And so that whatever those findings are, we'll work together to come up with something that's . . . something that could be interesting for the public and talk about that.
And then another thing that I really love doing is reacting to what's going on. Again, thinking back to helping platform people to help give context to stuff we're hearing in the news. Yeah, you know, if there's a big dust storm, for example, and we have amazing researchers who study dust patterns, and if that gets on snow, how does that accelerate snow melt? Or if there's going to be a big bill looking at increasing energy-efficient homes or things like that, we can reach to someone, like sociology Professor Lazarus Adua, who specializes in looking at “green technology” or things that are, at a technical level, are supposed to reduce emissions.
But he is a sociologist and so he looks at it from the angle of the human users and what happens when you actually put human behavior in that equation and maybe solar panels on everybody's roof, he found that there's a really big rebound effect where people are like, oh, I'm saving a bunch of electricity so I can use more electricity. And then it looks at a net increase in emissions, things like that, where he's doing research at a level that is really necessary but maybe isn't at the top of mind. So sometimes what's in the news will guide me to go find somebody to help me understand what's happening.
Julie Kiefer: How about you, Brian? How do you stay on top of things?
Brian Maffly: Well, I love just talking to researchers. I try to connect with a couple different people every day. And oftentimes they'll put me on to something that a colleague is up to that's interesting, and then I'll go follow up with that person. And sure enough, well, yeah, we've got this study in review, I think you'll like it. And they can share preprints with me. So that's one way.
The other thing is I am a huge consumer of science journalism myself. I'm always reading and there's all these podcasts out there now that I put on my phone and when I'm at the gym or something, I put my headphones on, listen to them. Science Friday is probably one of my favorites, but also there's an NPR program called Short Wave. They're 10-, 15-minute segments they do, just straight, right to the point. Nalini Nadkarni herself has the TreeNote podcast on KUER. I listen to those a lot, just more to just kind of get ideas for how to talk about science. But to keep abreast of what's going on on campus, it's just basically talking to people.
And then people reach out to me. And fortunately, a lot of people on campus already know who I am because of my long work with The Salt Lake Tribune. And so now I've reconnected with a lot of researchers I've interviewed in the past to follow up and with some of the studies they have coming out now. And that's been actually a great help to have people already know who I am. Sometimes they just call me up and talk. They reach out to me. It's not the other way around. And I feel very welcomed on campus because of that.
Lisa Potter: Oh, yeah, we're all very excited to work with local celeb, Brian Maffly!
Brian Maffly: Oh my God, I thought you were the celeb!
Lisa Potter: We're all big fans, Brian!
Julie Kiefer: So, what is the hardest part of the job?
Brian Maffly: Oh, the hardest part is definitely communicating this work into language that my teenage kids would understand. That's probably the hardest part. Not only understand but enjoy reading. I think that's where I struggle the most.
Julie Kiefer: But that's what you do! That must be the most fun part, too, right?
Brian Maffly: Yeah, it's definitely the most fun part. I mean, the most fun part is actually being in the field or the labs with scientists doing their work, that’s by far the most fun. But for me, the biggest challenge is to turn it into language that most educated people, I guess, can understand. But really, I guess the hardest part is to make it really engaging. And I feel like I'm pretty good at it, but there's sometimes when I go back and read some of my old Salt Lake Tribune stories, I'm like, oh my God, that is so bad. I wish I could rewrite that.
Julie Kiefer: It's there forever now. You can't get rid of it. What about you, Lisa? What's the most challenging part of your job?
Lisa Potter: Yeah, certain things. I get to cover the Department of Physics a lot, which is really great. I think that's not something that comes natural to me. So yeah, sometimes it's like the concept itself is very difficult, but it's just amazing. I mean, our scientists are also so great and so patient and able to kind of talk it through. Sometimes one of the hardest things is having time to be able to cover as many people's research projects that I'd like to. I have a really hard time saying no, maybe that's really hard for me, is to say no, if in my heart of hearts, I know maybe it's something that might not be super digestible to the public. But I personally, since I'm a nerd, I'm really into it. And yeah, it's hard for me to say no and, I don't know, whatever. I never regret writing about something.
Julie Kiefer: You know, we talked a little bit about why you do what you do, but I wonder if some of that is to address this mistrust in science that has become so prominent, especially in recent years. I mean, how do you think about that? Do you do some of your work to address that mistrust and regain that trust into science? Is that important to you?
Lisa Potter: Yeah, it's very important to me. As I was getting into science in my undergrad and learning more about climate change, specifically, and actually my research project about GMOs, I think there are certain science topics that go out of the realm of just straight up science research and sort of get tinges of other political baggage attached to it.
And so, I think it's interesting because there might just be a general knee-jerk distrust about a certain topic, but I find that the more specific you can get talking about a science topic, I feel like people can really relate to it. And maybe the initial knee-jerk mistrust of just science and academia, research grants as a whole, once you get down to the individual work of a scientist, I think it helps people sort of melt away preconceived notions they may have and really just hear the story. So maybe I don't consciously want to try to battle mistrust of science, but yeah, I think by telling individual stories that does help people access it in a way that maybe they wouldn't otherwise.
Julie Kiefer: Well, and it seems like that's where humanizing science and scientists can really help, right? I mean, we're all people just trying to make the world a better place. And if we can help other people understand that and how they're doing that, then I think that can go a long way towards the . . .
Brian Maffly: Yeah, unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of folks out there who view members of the scientific community as folks who have an agenda, willing to distort data to come up with a predetermined conclusion about the changing climate or whatever, vaccine efficacy. And honestly, I don't really understand where that comes from except that maybe there's a broad distrust of these elite academic institutions that have a lot of power and don't seem all that transparent.
But at the end of the day, scientists are, I mean, the ethical ones at least, are incredibly diligent about setting up their studies in ways that cuts their biases out, whatever they may be, and their data is legit. That said, there have been a lot of notorious episodes of scientific malfeasance. I don't want to go into too many specifics. However, it's just like one high-profile misstep can do a lot of damage and that's unfortunate.
Part of what I'm trying to accomplish is describing the scientific process to explain the way they're gathering data, the scientists are gathering data, processing the data, in a way that is most likely to result in a reliable conclusion, whether it's about climate change or whether a vaccine works or doesn't work or a specific treatment will result in a good outcome in patients. And my hope is that by shining a light on that, people understand that science is something that should be trusted and embraced when it's being conducted properly.
Julie Kiefer: Lisa and Brian, we've learned a lot about you and you two are great science writers, but there are other science writers on campus, too. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Do you collaborate with other people in the work that you do?
Brian Maffly: Absolutely. Lisa, why don't you start off on this? You've been around more than I have.
Lisa Potter: There are amazing science communicators across campus that Brian and I and Julie work with all the time. There was a question earlier about how do I decide what to write about, and a lot of it is working with people like Evan Lerner in the College of Engineering or David Pace in the College of Science, for example, who are embedded in their departments or their colleges. They really have a finger on the pulse of what's going on day-to-day. And they're amazing writers. And so it's a lot of really fun collaborations or we'll kind of tag team and work together to really make sure that whatever entity we're talking about on campus gets their moment to shine and that we really do justice. But, oh yeah, I mean, yeah, lots of amazing people across campus.
Brian Maffly: Lisa and I are hardly the only ones communicating science here, and it weren't for our colleagues, and I'm going to throw something out for Paul Gabrielsen, he is my predecessor. He is always referring inquiries to me that have proven to be very helpful. And we are a big family. We enjoy working together.
Julie Kiefer: So, if any scientists want to get ahold of you because they have hot news to share, how do they do that?
Lisa Potter: Reach out. I think you can always start with Brian or myself. Our emails are on the UMC website. But even if you don't have hot news, maybe it's lukewarm news, I don't know. I mean, you can always just sort of throw an email out there or contact your department to get connected with the amazing writers in those department offices.
And we could just chat about it. Maybe we decide not to go a typical route with a story, but maybe you have amazing images you want to share. We have a banging social media [@UofUNews] so we can share little snippets of what you're doing. There's just so many ways to talk about the research that's going on here. It doesn't have to be a straight up traditional article. There's lots of ways. So, I would say always reach out and we can brainstorm.
Julie Kiefer: Yeah. I'd also like to mention Sophia Friesen in Health Sciences. We work together and they do great work.
Brian and Lisa, I've really enjoyed talking with you today. And thank you for being my guests on U Rising.
Brian Maffly: Well, thank you for having us, Julie.
Lisa Potter: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Julie Kiefer: Listeners, that’s it for today's episode of U Rising. Our executive producer is Brooke Adams and our technical producer is Robert Nelson.
I'm Julie Kiefer. Thanks for listening.